This is ridiculous. I wonder if the shoe was on the other foot (low female grades and high male grades) whether we would consider lowering the standards for female students? There would be an uproar. Young women would be told to chin up and 'take it like a man'. But since it's boys who aren't doing well, we're happy to look at 'alternatives'. Give me a break.

f_f You're kidding me right? When I was obtaining my engineering degree do you have any idea how many scholarships and other incentives were available exclusively to females in order to increase their numbers. Sure maybe there wasn't a straight out lower entrance requirement but there were many advantages given that were not extended to male students. I don't believe it's right to favor by gender either way but to say that women haven't been given advantages is ignoring the truth.

true, ok, maybe there are scholarships available to women and that this gender bias doesn't help the situation. But those scholarships and awards have nothing to do with admission into university in the first place. The scholarships are just financial aid - guys can still get into university without the scholarships. So why should they university admission standards for men? If anything, take away the gender-biased scholarships or other awards that give preference.

The vast majority of students in university are in 'soft' subjects (e.g. not engineering, not medecine, not hard sciences etc.) In these programmes the ability tto communicate in written language and to understand others (empathy?) are key skills. There should be no surprise then that women who seem to be slightly advantaged over men in these aptitudes should have the advantage in gaining entry to to these field in University. Conversely in programms where spatial and mathematical aptitudes give an edge we see male predominance in the classroom. So what then is wrong with creating an incentive to ensure a sufficient male presence in certain faculties to ensure the advantages of gender diversity are realised, we have put incentives in place to get qualified women to enter engineering and the profession has only improved as a result.

15 years ago I read a paper called "Highly confident but wrong", which was a study reporting on how young women were better aware of what they didn't know about a topic then young men who were overconfident in determining what they knew (a concept called "calibration"). A study reporting that young women "study better" than young men would be completely consistent with research on calibration. Since our culture seems to be directed towards creating men who are overconfident blowhards (think business, sports, etc) and to speak out about that constantly then I see little hope that there will be improvement in academic calibration of young males. But that's a SOCIAL thing learned from peers and parents and schools....they could be taught otherwise....and consequently study better.

Oh sure, let's cut the guys a break - women have worked their way up to the upper ranks of recognition, and now we should give men a break because they are not as good at studying as their female counterparts - RIDICULOUS.

FYI Timmy - being denied opportunities is not the same as being a lazy male. Get your act together and stop crying river.

You're kidding yourself, Cat, if you don't think universities have a lower acceptance threshold for girls when it comes to programs like Engineering or Computers. Workplaces in these industries have the same thing. If you're a girl applying to a software firm, you're going to get an interview.

That being said, tough luck for men. They can either learn to study better or use their better-than-women-on-average strength to do the heavy-lifting-no-education jobs.

People, regardless of sex, race, colour, etc., should do what they're good at. We don't need every combination of human being in every job in the world.

Number of thoughts. I seem to recall that enrollment standards were changed for the fire and police departments to allow more women to gain admission. How is this different?

Second, seems like the public school system focus on promoting self-esteem and directing its teaching towards female learning methods was done at the expense of mens' learning opportunities.

I also thought using gender as a discriminator was against our charter. Why this obviously inflammatory piece on how deficient men are??

I don't think that universities are obliged to maintain gender balance, however, it would be interesting to see if the same gender-based grade differential exists at the university level. If it doesn't, it would suggest that high school grades are inaccurately favouring females and it would make sense for universities to lower admission standards for males.

Ridiculous - lowering the bar for any "disadvantaged group" means cheating people who worked hard out of the spot their performance rightfully earned, to give it to someone who showed less merit.

That said, the practice of gearing high-school teaching toward methods that favour girls over boys should perhaps be revisited at this time.

I am a female engineer. I think the insentives for women in engineering are horribly unfair. I saw a mentoring program that allowed woman to work with important females, but men couldn't apply. I agree sexist scholarships are unfair and I think they are helping the devide (not hindering).

If we are going to allow favortism (or diversity pushes) in some fields then the same should be in all. If we need more female engineers then I think more male HR reps and Social Workers. (Yes engineering firms get a small reward for hiring woman, I've checked that box for employers)

I am not a person for grades, but there isn't many other ways to look at a large volume of students. Maybe if we stop favoring woman and trust we have given them the push they need, men in time will catch up.

Also Matt: There are no lower admission grades for females in male dominated fields. However I think in math and engineering a push should be for natural intellegence and not grades, its about being able to think creatively and reason, not memorize.

k_k

What exactly am I crying a river about? Why are you insinuating that I am lazy? Character assassination just comes off as a juvenile retort of someone without a valid counterpoint. I am not arguing for lowered male admission requirements to boost their numbers. I am simply arguing that the concept of females not enjoying advantages that are designed to increase their numbers is moot and should not be used as a valid argument against assisting males to boost enrollment. Either way I believe that giving incentives to increase enrollment of a particular gender is a noble yet flawed goal. I firmly believe that we must do our best to ensure equal opportunities regardless of gender.

Of course this isn't fair, but since when is being fair a reason not to do something? If that were the case, women wouldn't be in most of the careers they now occupy, or vote. We'd still be barefoot in the kitchen.

And there have always been incentives/exceptions made for women and minorities. Don't think this is a new idea. Just it's usually not the boys who get the benefit. Nice to see for a change

"56 per cent of Canadian undergraduates were women"

Considering ~50% of the population is women, this seems reasonable. What's the problem?

There is far too much emphasis on higher education in Canada. While we should all be concerned if students with the potential to be doctors or scientists are not pursuing higher education because of poor instruction, lack of parental support, or lack of motivation, we should not be at all concerned if more boys aren't filling up the ranks of our universities' taxpayer subsidized humanities and liberal arts programmes.

I'm surprised that the author, Kathy Dobson would not consider gender an issue with regard to the academic performance of her kids. It's obvious to anyone with the remotest knowledge of developmental psychology that there are gender difference at various developmental stages, which translate to differences in academic performance at various ages. In general, the current modes of education favour girls, due to the way that they learn and process information, as noted by Ms. Dobson. Perhaps it's less a matter of "girls teaching boys a thing or two" and more a matter of understanding how the different genders learn and trying to adapt to those differences.

I seem to remember a gaggle of girls at my high school who always had top marks. Yes they studied longer and harder and probably more efficiently, and apparently were better at "converting a given amount of study time in grade."

Funny thing was that when it came right down to it, they never seemed to actually know much of anything ...

@Peso Liviano

I agree it would be interesting to learn if the same gender-based differential exists at the university level. And if so, why?

I did a quick check and according to research by the Higher Education Policy Institute (HEPI)women are outperforming men at university. "The study shows that female students...outstrip male undergraduates in almost every subject including law and medicine."

Here's a link to the story in The Times (in the UK) online:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article6451515.ece

Does this mean all educational institutions are somehow set up to favour female students? It's an interesting question.

@ Fake_Name

You said, "... the practice of gearing high-school teaching toward methods that favour girls over boys should perhaps be revisited at this time."

Assuming that high-school teaching methods actually do favour females, I wonder if there's a way to make the system somehow more inclusive so that it also works for male students.

I'd love to hear from any teachers on this. Do they think the system favours females? And if so, how?

hey Cat, news flash. While maybe the men ARE getting admitted to universities with their grades, they aren't able to pursue a university career because they aren't receiving scholarships for something as simple as their sex. I know when I was looking at scholarships there was nothing for me. I had to be either a woman, a visible minority, French, or Catholic. I tried for the African descent one seeing as how my mother was born and raised in Africa... but apparently that only applies to black students. I figured as much, but you can't blame a guy for trying given how much debt I've accumulated putting myself through school.

Fortunately, I was able to make it happen. Maybe you'd see a slightly more even distribution if you eliminated some scholarships or provided equal numbers for men and women. Seriously, the cost matters.

20K+ in the hole so far and I'm thinking I may have to put my graduate studies on hold...

I can't believe this idea is even being floated. Boys just have to pull themselves together and work to get where they want, as girls have had to do. Girls have had few or no breaks in male-dominated areas, so why we should add to males' sense of entitlement by making speciala allowance for them is beyond me.

I hope this isn't a serious consideration. No matter what gender, if you don't have the grades, you should not go to university. This world is becoming far too "fair", in the sense that everyone should be able to do everything, which should not be the case.

@Kathy

The big difference that often gets thrown around is that males tend to thrive in competitive environments, and females tend to thrive in collaborative environments. These are generalizations of course, everyone is different, but if boys have no way to compare their performance to others, or, even worse, if they see someone who knows less than them get better grades they may lose interest. The idea that effort should be graded rather than results in any subject is a perfect example of this: why try when even if you're the best someone else can do better for trying harder?

I can't generalize for all men, but I know that I felt demoralized in school because of the emphasis on effort as opposed to results.

I remember being reminded on numerous occasions by teachers that just because I had done well on an assignment or test did not mean that I should feel proud. After all, pride was unwelcome in the classroom. It implied that there was competition between students and that some students deserved to feel better about themselves than others. That flew in the face of the teachers' belief that everyone was equal.

It still makes me angry to think about how in a certain math class, obtaining the correct solution was less important than the neatness with which you documented your work. Is that the mindset that we want to instill in our future engineers and scientists? It doesn't matter if the bridge collapses so long as you put the effort into making a spiffy design?

Well, men like to feel a sense of pride and achievement for a job well done. If you fail to reward them and continuously tell them that regardless of their performance, they should not feel proud and are equal to everyone else, they will reallocate their effort into activities where achievement is actually rewarded. They may turn to sports, music, video games, cars, gangs, or who knows what, but eventually they'll find something that makes them proud.

Thus, the difficulty that men are currently having in school ultimately results from the inability of teachers to accept that in the real world, results are all that matter, and some people really are better at producing those results than others.

Their denial of that reality makes sense when you consider that most teachers today are only teachers because their marks were not high enough to get into something else. They were the students who put in effort, but failed to achieve.

@Jeff

What an interesting perspective. I'm especially intrigued by your comment that there's an emphasis in high school on effort, as opposed to results.

"I can't generalize for all men, but I know that I felt demoralized in school because of the emphasis on effort as opposed to results.

I remember being reminded on numerous occasions by teachers that just because I had done well on an assignment or test did not mean that I should feel proud. After all, pride was unwelcome in the classroom. It implied that there was competition between students and that some students deserved to feel better about themselves than others. That flew in the face of the teachers' belief that everyone was equal."

I can see how it would be demoralizing to believe that your results aren't being given the same respect or positive regard from the teacher as another student's 'efforts' are.

I wonder how common your experience is among other men?

As far as I'm concerned, there really isn't a huge disparity between men and women in universities, and if there is, it isn't significant enough to be taken note of.

Europeans used to complain that the Jews were too rich and are taking over their businesses. But the reality is, Jewish people have no choice but to deal with money, since they had no land. Nevertheless, this belief had lead to the death of millions of them.

To repeat a post earlier, people do what they're good at, be that pro athlete or MBA accountant. And if we feel that there is a lack of equality, well, that's not the fault of people doing their jobs, it the fault of the people creating the wage levels.

Blame them instead.

Unfortunately with our current university system churning out so many graduates with no employable skills, they will all be considered 'equal' when they line up for a job at Starbuck’s waving their BA in Political Science or Art History at the manager.

Perhaps many of the smart young men have seen the light and are considering college or a skilled trade apprenticeship instead of university because they know that it can lead to a great career, a stable income, and even the opportunity to be an entrepreneur. For too many university graduates this revelation only comes to them after pi$$ing away several years at university, being in debt to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, and trying to pay all of that off earning a living asking if the rest of us “want fries with that”.

The whole educational system is female biased. I have two boys that do better then the asian girls in their class and some teachers have even been in denial about that simple fact. The reason my boys do better is also simple, we teach them like boys which takes more resources and greater tolerance of agressive tendencies.

I wonder how long this trend has been in existence? There is a factor that has not been mentioned and that is the elimination of grade 13 in Ontario. Males take longer to mature and even with grade 13 most guys I knew still took a second try at 13 before gaining admission to university (me too) and this was back in the days of grade 13 departmental exams. Community colleges might also be a factor luring those who want/need to be employed sooner rather than later.

Also, the whole premise of the article is somehow that 'success' means attendance at university, while 'failure' is choosing another post-secondary educational path through a college diploma or an apprenticeship. Is a plumber, chef, truck mechanic, paramedic, robotics technician, or respiratory technologist somehow less successful in life than so many university graduates?

A university education is not required for any of those well paying and in-demand occupations. (A large percentage of college students actually already have a university education and then return for career education in fields like this.)

Perhaps we as a society need to re-think how we define 'success' and start to give the people who perform the jobs and pay the taxes to support those university students studying philosophy a little respect.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Girls ARE Smarter!

And no, there should be EQUAL standards for girls and boys. :) Boys aren't stupid, just lazy.

Kathy Dobson writes: "I wonder if there's a way to make the system somehow more inclusive so that it also works for male students."

We could start by reversing the trend driven by the hair-brained academics and OISE trained administrators where so many high-school shop classes were decimated over the past 25-yrs across the province. After all does anyone actually believe that an average 16-yr old boy would rather be sitting in an English Literature class or learning how to weld in the Metals Shop (or even learning math from the Electrical Shop teacher for that matter)?

The problem is that so many of the teachers and administration personnel have never spent any time outside of school environment that they have absolutely no idea of how to deal with anything outside of their frame of reference, and that includes providing meaningful applied educational experience for teenage boys (and many girls too).

hmmm...should males be given a break? Well, when I started by Aerospace Engineering degree at Carleton in 1992 (then the most exclusive engineering program in the country), the application cutoff was 86%. The "actual" cutoff for male applicants based on competitiveness was 91%; the cutoff for females was (gasp) 84%...below the official cut-line. And STILL, there were only 4 women in the class of 46. There are good female engineers out there to be sure, but the best have almost always been men and because this subject matter plays to men's brain characteristics. The same could be said about women for soft-skill majors, which make up the glut of most university programs, and which favour strong communication skills (aka women). I honestly don't know why we continue to dwell on "I'm better than you"...that kind of just points to gender and class-wide insecurities. Stop worrying about what this study says about you or that other person. The benefits of skill and hardwork are not the domain of any given sex, class, religion or race.

From my experiance, Arts degrees are significantly easier to obtain than engineering, mathematics and hard science degrees. Also, I tend to notice more males in those "harder" areas, and significant females majorities in the faculty of arts.

What does that say? Although I haven't seen any gender stats based on faculty, so I don't know if it is true or not.

I do not see why this is any problem. Women are much more happy studying than men, and they are better in school and so what.

We are beginning to realize in our society that practical skills are necessary, and everybody does not need a university education.

As a society we need more tradesmen and less accountants and we need to focus on practical things.

We over rate the importance of university education, and under rate the importance of practical skills inour society. A balance is necessary.

its either ur smart enough to work hard or dum enough to slack, gender shouldn't matter

In the US, university admissions officers have already acknowledged that there *are lower university entrance standards for men - and that girls try harder because they know they have to, not only to be considered equal to their male peers, but also because the competition against other women is stiffer from the outset. Please read Delahunty Britz's editorial, "To All the Girls I've Rejected," and congratulate your daughter again on all her hard work, even if it doesn't get her as far, in the end, as similar effort from your sons: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html.

What should be discussed is drop out rates of the two sexes once they enter university. Or the ration of graduating students (from university).

The fact is that if you have to work hard in highschool to get accepted to university, university will chew you up and spit you out. Students go from 90's to 60's and don't understand why. While alot of 70-80% students stay exactly there.

Its a cost for value thing. If you have have to put in 10 hours a week in a subject for a 90, or 2 hours a week for an 80, is it worth it? Boys appearently don't think it is, I have to agree with them (atleast in highschool).

Canadian students should right placements tests as thier main scoring mechanism for universities, test thier ability to think, not to memorize.

Men should receive EQUAL treatment by the Canadian Government.

Can we have $100 million for men's issues and a Minister for the Status of Men PLEASE!

I think Kathy Dobson understands this issue very well. I am happy to see that she is concerned about the future of her sons as well as her daughters.

However you describe it, high school is female oriented and male characteristics are repressed and marginalized.

We need boys-only schools, where leadership, competition, physical activity and hands-on skills are encouraged!

University standards for women are already lower in the few programs they don't outnumber the men. And it shows. The remedial class at Queen's when you completely screw up first year is always vastly overpopulated with women who were let in because of their genes, not grades. It really is an insult to the many women who deserve to be in the program.

There are many scholarships in eng that are women only, and those that aren't maintain a 50/50 split between genders. End result, women receive way more funding with the same grades.

This is only controversial because men are receiving special treatment for once.

With regards to @Jeff's comment that his high school tended to reward effort and neatness over results I would completely concur. I cannot speak for all high schools but in my school it resulted in a shift in results from boys to girls. I don't think boys are more intelligent than girls nor vice versa however the learning environment plays a huge role. Changing schools from competive agressive environments to more effort based helped shift the gender bias from boys to girls... however it seems the program was too successful and now FAVOURS girls instead of correcting the imbalance.

Just to add to my previous comment - yes, I am in graduate school (in a science program) and yes, our department (PHarmacology) is heavily female-based (over 75%). However, this seems to only apply to the health sciences in general, not for the more practical sciences like engineering or computer science.
I don't agree that favouring females into these programs is a good incentive - if you read my previous post, you will see that I am not siding with the universities - they should eliminate these gender-biased scholarships altogether, I also thought that this type of gender favouritism was part of the Constitution.

@Denis Pakkala

You said, "We need boys-only schools, where leadership, competition, physical activity and hands-on skills are encouraged!"

I've recently been thinking about the whole issue of gender based schools and wondering what, if any, advantages they might offer.

Or more specifically, I've been wondering what the disadvantages might be for both sexes. Thanks for mentioning it, though, as I'll definitely do a piece on it in the near future. I think it's an issue worth looking at.

@Doug H

You said, "We are beginning to realize in our society that practical skills are necessary, and everybody does not need a university education.

As a society we need more tradesmen and less accountants and we need to focus on practical things.

We over rate the importance of university education, and under rate the importance of practical skills inour society. A balance is necessary."

Doug, I couldn't agree more. As Journeyman also pointed out, we need to consider reversing the trend that has led to so many high-schools dropping their shop classes. So many of the trades need more skilled workers today, and as both of you have already pointed out, university isn't for everyone, of course.

@ femmephd

I read the editorial and found it really interesting, so thanks very much for the link.

But are you suggesting that males applicants are favoured over females here in Canada as well, because in the US, "university admissions officers have already acknowledged that there *are lower university entrance standards for men..."?

First of all, don't argue that men are actually "smarter" because they're in "hard programs" like math and engineering. I know guys who graduated from top schools with math and engineering degrees and write like tenth graders. They struggle in subjects like English and Art. Engineering isn't necessarily harder than arts subjects, just different. They require different types of intelligence and can't really be compared.

As for men getting advantages: women have been disadvantaged for CENTURIES. Treated as objects, not even considered people under the law. Fortunately this changed and programs were introduced to help women have the same opportunities as men. Men have never had these disadvantages. Don't talk about how "unfair" it is that women have been given advantages. In fact, many of these so called "advantages" have been the simple rights men have enjoyed for centuries (education, ability to hold a job, vote).

Infact, despite the gender gap in unis, men still hold more top positions than women in nearly every field. Because of this, I'd say men still have an upperhand in many fields.

Also, the so called "female favouring" study methods used now, are the same study methods that were used even when women weren't allowed in school.

the low number of boys in university may be due to behaviour. Society encourages boys to act "macho" and act like tough, emotionless (except agression)beings. Young men aren't encouraged to take instruction, learn, read, write.

Maybe if we changed out attitudes towards the sexes, this wouldn't be a problem.

I think the issue is the way young boys are conditioned by society, not necessarily advantages women are getting.

Also, for many of these gender scholarships (there are as many as people think), you do still need to show you're university material.

In regards to saying that math, science and engineering aren't harder just different than arts, i would say that this is somewhat true. They are different, but not by that much.

I have taken both types of courses, and find arts extremely simple in comparison.

Very interesting discussion, Kathy!! Thanks for bringing it forward. I have two sons ... one who went through Computer Science and one through Engineering.

When they were in high school, both of them had rotten marks in their early years and it was only when they hit late grade 12 and into grade 13 (yes, my youngest was in the second-last year of grade 13 in Ontario) that they excelled and made it into the programs of their choice at the schools of their choice. Did the competition/rewards gene finally kick in?

I too went through in Computer Science in the early 70s. I'm female and in that era, there were lots of females in the course and I don't think there was any particular gender bias on admission because it was such a new program (no double meaning intended ;) ) ...

I don't have a point with my comments but to say thanks for opening up the topic!

Hi Kathy,

Ahhh, what a hot potatoe you chose to discuss....good for you!

We are in 2009, nearly 2010 and we are discussing gender issues....lol.

The gender wars will only get worse, sorry. And the reason is no one in power wishes to address the true cause for such unbalanced gender performance in education.

Many people saw this problem coming decades ago. It's simply positive discrimination run amok. In the 60's and on, so many government programs (etc. etc.) were geared for females. And, RIGHTLY so.

Prob is, if it started in the 60's, it's now been roughly 5 decades of positive discrimination against males. It's called misandry.

When positive discrimination was begun, lol, we were assured it would stop when females got the 50% of stuff, jobs, money etc.

And it never stopped. A quote from JENNIFER DELAHUNTY BRITZ;

"How's that for an unintended consequence of the women's liberation movement?"

I personally would not use the word unintended. I would use "direct"

Another quote from the same author/article;
"Beyond the availability of dance partners for the winter formal, gender balance matters in ways both large and small on a residential college campus. Once you become decidedly female in enrollment, fewer males and, as it turns out, fewer females find your campus attractive."

Males today are so disfavoured in WESTERN society that it is becoming impossible to ignore any longer.

Just a few education current facts to establish this theory...lol, of mine.

A)In Québec, 80% (and climbing) of the educational employees are female...and what few males they still have are fleeing the education system...teachers and students.

B) Drugging students to keep them calm and studious is skyrocketing. There are 9 boys on Ritalin for every 1 girl..in Qwébec. Spend 1/2 hour reading up on that.....it's a psychotropic drug comparable to cocain.

C) So feminised is our education system that the following story...is TRUE.
At recess at an elementary school, boys came in all wet and stuff. After verification, it was determined they were playing "king of the mountain" on a huge pile of snow in the school courtyard. The solution?, when clearing the courtyard of snow, the big pile was sent out of the schoolyard.

Just like China is today regretting killing so many females, Western society is (will) regret having discriminated so long against it's own males.

A happiness study by gender;
http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys/papers/Paradox%20of%20declining%20female%20happiness.pdf

And oddly, the result after 5 decades of out of control feminism.....men are happier than before and women are LESS happy than before!!

Regards,

Pierre

Ah,

An appropriate photo;

http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj338/UglyToesPete2/drug-free-school.jpg

:)

You're curious about a teacher's reaction...This is a tough one.As a teenage boy,I wouldn't have wanted to spend too much time with women teachers(at the risk of feeling disadvantaged) but sometimes the girls felt disadvantaged by a teacher's (even a woman's)attitude.So it's hard to generalise.

Years ago girls didn't fare that well in Math and Physics but performed better in English.We came to expect this but we no longer do.So much has to do with the perception of the student and the comfort zone you provide for them.

There were times when girls were definitely not favored by me and a number of my colleagues had similar experiences.I didn't often consider the matter consciously except in some unusual situations.I always remembered my high school years as years forcing conformity and cooperation so ,if anything,I might have had a soft spot for the boys who felt naturally uncomfortable.As for the girl who is unbelievably haunting,you try your best to be fair and hope for the best.She might not enjoy the class but she'd fake it better than the guy next to her.

Ms. Dobson may want to add some nuance to her stats. Part of the reason that university enrolments seems to suggest a majority of female students (and, as one poster has pointed out, this isn't very far off the actual ratio of women to men in society as a whole), it's known that women generally take longer to get through their degrees than men do, thus accounting for somewhat 'skewed' statistics. Why do women take longer? Largely because of official or unofficial caregiving responsibilities, either for their own children (yes, there are undergrads with children) or for siblings.

A number of posters have brought up the idea of the 'feminization' of education, a gross fallacy if there ever was one, particularly as those same posters tend to talk about the need for boys to be able to move around in the classroom and don't like group work because they are competitive individualists (how many stereotypes can we fit in??). Contemporary educational approaches offer MORE opportunitiy to move around the classroom than they ever did in the past. And it's worth pointing out that the pedagogical approaches of Canadian business schools, hardly bastions of gender 'indoctrination', rely *very* heavily on group work.

As for the 'difficulty' of studying engineering vs. humanities/social sciences, I'll just leave you with an anecdote. A (female) engineering student, programmed by the faculty to brag that engineering students were the best and brightest on campus (yes, they were told this in their introductory lectures), told me boastfully that to get into engineering, students had to have an 88% average, as if this was proof of her intellectual superiority over the rest of us social science/humanities plebes. I pointed out that I had a 90+ average but just didn't feel like being in engineering.

NO! they have an easier time getting educated anyway. it is much more difficult for women who want to have children and who need life experience in high school to protect themselves.

Isn't this really about class and not really about success? i.e. white collar vs blue collar, rich = sucess, lower middle class, poor = failure.

In my opinion we measure status by toys achieved in a world full of war and poverty, it's quite obvious we in the west have been focusing on the wrong values. We had financial crisis caused by rampant speculation of the north america's and the worlds richest most educated families, what exactly is so wondrous to emulate here?

This is really about social hierarchy, why is there an obsession with work and school success? In a world as populace as ours and with good job scarcity and resource scarcity, even if you could make all children intelligent and sociable human beings, you'd still have class, status and hierarchy that results from scarcity of decent paying jobs and capitalisms race to the bottom for the worlds most cheapest and exploitable set of human beings.

This is really status and not about education, people have been complaining about the education of boys and girls since the beginning of time.

I think the real issue is that our concept of bourgois success is fatally flawed and hopelessly childish.

Absolutely not!
Standards should never be lowered. I actually think they aren't high enough at the moment.

And, let's face it, men are not disadvantaged. Most senior positions in every profession are still held by men even though women outnumber men at university.

Cult_of_Success wrote: "Isn't this really about class and not really about success? i.e. white collar vs blue collar, rich = sucess, lower middle class, poor = failure."
-----------------------
It's funny that in North America "middle class" somehow means that you are poor. In the UK, "middle class" is the professional class of well-off, educated people who practice law, medicine or other white collar careers.
Working class or lower class would be akin to "blue collar".
Only those with inherited wealth and titles or are especially successful in business and become millionaires or billionaires are considered "upper class".
In Canada, everyone thinks they are at least middle-class...lol
And that's why everyone thinks they have to go to university here and standards have to be lowered so everyone can get in. It then cheapens what a university education means.

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