The data discussed in this article are not very helpful unless a clear distinction is made between dropping out of a particular university (and transferring to another university or college) and dropping out of university altogether. The University of Manitoba may be concerend about retaining its students, but as Candaians, we shouldn't care if a given student transfers from Manitoba to some other post-secondary institution.

Just because you "drop out" doesn't mean you won't get a degree and go on to be successful. I have known people who dropped out and then later re-entered university and did very well. Some went on to grad school. And all of these people I know landed excellent jobs. Just think Bill Gates and a Steve Jobs to just name a few well-known examples. Dropping out, as you so negatively call it, doesn't mean you can't be a high achiever.

When I went to university in the late 60's, in first year engineering they said look to your left, and then look to your right, and by Christmas one of you won't be here. And it was true, by Christmas one third of the class had dropped out. I understand that is still the routine, and still true. I would also note that engineering has some of the most difficult entrance requirements in terms of prerequisites.

I would also note that there are a lot of people that go to university that shouldn't be there, and then they graduate and never use their degree. If the only job you can find is a truck driver, then you probably don't need a degree.

Speaking from experience, university is not for everyone, and neither schools nor universities realistically help you determine whether or not you should be there.

Vocational counselling can help students determine (a) what their talents are, and (b) where their interests lie.

One or two vocational tests won't do the job. Students might need 20-40 hours of testing to narrow things down.

If you think this is expensive, it's cheaper than a wasted year in university.

Considering we're not truly mature intellectually or emotionally in our late teens--we're still trying to find out place in the world--most of us don't have a clear idea of either what we can or want to do for a living.

Students who end up in programs they are intellectually capable of handling but don't like are, naturally, going to be more prone to dropping out.

And why not? Who wants to get up every day and be forced to do something they hate?

Too many students get pushed into programs that have high incomes as their goal rather than a job the students might like passionately.

When students are in programs for which they have both the talent and the interest, they will succeed.

One other thing that can make a difference is the work ethic.

The willingness to work hard at something--which is easier when you feel positive about what you're doing--is worth more than brains.

Too many students show up at university thinking they can coast through like they did in high school.

In university, the profs won't push you. They don't care if you cut classes, and if you drop out, you make their life easier because it's fewer papers and exams they have to mark.

Students who aren't self-motivated, interested in their subjects, and willing to work at their courses are wasting their time at university.

They might benefit more from taking a year or two off, working at a full-time job, giving themselves time to grow up some more, and saving up for their all-too-expensive post-secondary education.

Parents! Don't push your kids to go to university. It isn't for everyone. Better you encourage your kids to find their passion in life and pursue it.

If that means university, all well and good, but, if not, there’s a lot of skill and pride involved in trades or technical professionals.

And no matter how poorly the job might pay, your kids will learn to live on that income when they truly enjoy their work. What parent in his or her right mind would deny their child the right and opportunity to pursue happiness?

When your kids are out in the real world, they're getting up every day with a smile on their faces and looking forward to going to work, that's the best reward you're ever going get as a parent.

And you'll know they've grown up at last when they thank you for that.

Interesting articles

Very poorly written and researched article.

Truth is -- too many people go to university in the first place. Too many people think it is the only option if they want a well-paid career. Wrong!
Schools and parents shouldn't be encouraging all students to go to university. Many careers do not require university training. And let's face it...there are thousands of university graduates who can't get a decent paying job and are carrying huge debts. We need to change our thinking here. In most Western countries, less than 15% of the population go to university. And for those who do, they have better employment prospects because university degrees aren't so under-valued like they are here because they are so common. People need to wake up and look at other, more promising options.

i don't need to read the article or read any stats on who or why kids "drop out" of university, it's pretty obvious.

the first kids who drop out of university are the ones who shouldn't be there in the first place. i know, in ontario at least, the people 'guiding' students into university are doing a p!ss poor job. some kids shouldn't be going to university, and there isn't a thing wrong with that. other options are out there, better suited to the induvidual and provide better returns for everyone.

the second group of kids who 'drop out' of university are the ones who go looking for a great education, experiences and a period of growth only to met with contrite, abusive, condescending, dis-interested and aloof professors who only care about the 'work' they're doing - outside of teaching - or for the people who blow sunshine up their a$$.

add in some misclaneous financial burden/personal issues and you're complete.

done. no study needed.

Just because someone drops out in the first year doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It might be a chance to see what university is like and make an informed decision that it's not for you and you won't regret 'not trying.' It might also have to do with learning that your highschool and parents lied about university - that it's 'essential' for a good job - and finding out that job prospects aren't that good, especially for humanities/ social science. I think this helps the cause that is trying to get colleges to offer the first 2 years of university.

I teach first year college English and many students A) don't have the necessary foundation skills and B) have a sense of entitlement at odds with the realities of the post-high school (real) world. The college/university system doesn't need them. Does it really matter if they drop out? Hopefully they'll learn from failing and work harder at something else in the future. Not a big deal.

I agree with some of the above posters that a number of people drop out because they should never have gone to university in the first place. Some people are meant to dig ditches and work at Tim Hortons. That doesn't require a university education.

The research you've linked doesn't seem to support your conclusions. If anything, it shows a spike in drop-outs in the later years of university. So, why do students drop out after successfully completing at least a couple years of their degrees? I don't know, but the answer could have made for an interesting and informative article, as opposed to this 'transition is hard' article from the institute of Stuff People Already Know.

Guaranteed, many many 1st year university students are there because it was expected they would -- of course you're going to university, aren't you? Do you want to be a loser? Well, out here in the working world I have been alongside many many grads who did make it past 1st year. And they have no real ability in anything. That BA after their name showed they did the work, what was expected of them, and they are out there among 10s of thousands of other BAs who have no contacts, no real marketable skill, and they barely function at the job they did manage to land. I know many others 20 years down the road are still living life day by day at menial work. The worst thing I personally could have done after high school was become a member of the flock of sheep and go to university instead of an applied college program.

Note - those students who come out of secondary school who were involved in the International Baccalaureate program has a 94% graduation rate in 3 or 4 year University Degree programs...

IB is *the best* University prep program available, period.

Some people can't balance the party with the schoolwork

That's the biggest reason haha!

Perhaps part of the problem is that even the parents of these children do not know the difference between 'then' and 'than', or at least do not know the value of proof-reading. I quote from the blog entry:

"This results in students taking longer then four years to complete their undergraduate degree."

In addition to the then/than error, the sentence also begins with an unclear referent ("This") to refer to something from a previous sentence. Sloppy, indeed.

Our writer is also unfamiliar with the appropriate use of "which" as a restrictive modifier.

If students do not have parents to whom they can turn for sound examples for the production of clear thought, a school system will not provide it for them (public or private). If kids from private schools have rather superior writing skills, the skill generally correlates to the ability of the family to impart cultural knowledge and language skills on a quotidian basis.

The loss of grade 13 n Ontario, and the narrowing of public curricula also mean that many of ours students arrive to university without the general familiarity we used to be able to assume students had with the writers and thinkers from whose works our university curricula depart. If as in other provinces, our students put in some time in humanities and social science courses at the college level, we might see general retention rates increase.

Finally, the reality is that many high school students are receiving A and B range grades simply for completing assignments. That's not how one *earns* exceptional grades at university; it's how to earn *average* grades. Mix in too much partying with only average commitment and/or ability and one will see mediocre to failing results.

Universities are not vocational schools. Some professional programmes may lean toward the vocational side, but even those will include a large integrative and intellectual component beyond the 'job criteria' for carrying out one's cubicle tasks. even university level physics, that most 'objective' of all sciences asks students to comprehend the heady idea that in perceiving an atomic structure, the structure is changed.

Neither is university a place to go find oneself. Such an idea is really to distort the points on which it is loosely based: Heidegger's conceptualization of authentic being located in time, the ancient philosophical question of what constitutes a 'good life', and the ethical responsibilities of one to "an Other" (pace Levinas).

University is a place to explore ideas, to take stabs at being wrong, not (parsing Stanley Fish) simply to avoid making errors. What students pay for is not access to services, but for the privilege of thinking with the benefit of input from those more well-read, more experienced, and better informed in a given field than all but smallest percentage of the population. In return for our catalyzing input, we expect some effort back from our students. The ones for whom the expectation comes as a shock do not belong in the university, and I have found in the course of a career in academe that if I waste time on those not interested in the pursuit of knowledge, then I will also lose those who would gladly pursue knowledge and understanding.

Please stop sending me the uninterested, asking the university and me to fix them. Inspiration starts with the student; I can only ignite it. I do not provide the fuel.

Chalk this stat up to mark inflation at the high school level. Since there is no level standard between secondary schools, unearned marks of +90% are not uncommon. The quality and rigor of a high school is what ultimately determines a students post-secondary success.

Personally I found my first year at University (computer engineering) quite dull. Many courses felt like a review, and the work load was not excessive compared to what I was used to. In fact, I experienced an opposite freshman fifteen. My grades went up, and I lost weight!

I did not attend a fancy private school. My public high school emphasized hard work and quality, and I do not recall many, if any, people graduating with a +90% final average. Meanwhile universities are playing the number game and entrance averages are through the roof. These students are given the red carpet treatment, with entrance scholarships and personal tours, only to drop out after a year.

Universities must do more to examine who they are accepting. (Unless this is a shotgun tactic to fill profitable gigantic first year classes with students, only to weed out those with ability... but that is another topic all together)

Survival of the fittest, that is all that it is. It is a competition. Sh*t or get off the pot. Universities olny care about attracking research and cramming as many tuition paying drones into the aisles.

Another view, all high schools are not equal. It is easier for someone froma small town to have a high average, be special, then get to a school like Waterloo, where in my first year program class of 60 there were 35 Valadictorians, including me, they are not special any more and are not ready to compete.

Systemic I tell you.

BTW, I am a superstar!

I have a son and a daughter, daughter went right to university after high school and had no problems graduated...son I talked to him an we agreed that he wasn't "ready" for university in the sense that he really never knew what he wanted to do, he needed to go and live and figure out what he wanted in life....to many times parents, kids feel that kids need to go right into university, they don't....it's on a one on one basis...my son is 22 and has enrolled for nest year and very much looking forward to it as he has found his niche in life...whereas 4-5 years ago he would have been a dropout...

I dropped out of first year university because the professors were never in the class, the students weren't interested, and nobody could give me a simple straight answer as to what classes I needed to take to get the degree I wanted. This was about 15 years ago, everything was paper based records, disorganized, and unreliable. It's entirely possible I simply picked a bad university because it was close to home, regardless I figured I could do better on my own. I took some time off, went back to work, and a few years later took some part time college courses in IT and studied on my own. I got an entry level position, and then my employer paid for additional technical certifications. I took the little bit of money I managed to save and invested in real estate on the side, renovating houses and renting them out and helping other real estate investors where I could. Now I'm 36, I own a very nice house in a very nice neighborhood, have multiple income streams earning over six digits and have no debt. If I want to learn something myself I have no problem checking the university curriculum and picking up the same text book. Who knows, I might try university some day, but I don't look at it as a way to increase my income.

I think it's because some people just are not meant to be at university. I know many friends from my high school who went onto colleges or the trades without even thinking about university. I think this is perfectly acceptable.

I also know a lot of people who have dropped out or changed programmes here at Waterloo. One bit of advice I got when in my first week was if you do not like your programme at the end of first year, change! I know many people who made it to third year before deciding that their major wasn't what they wanted and switched to another major having to spend an extra 2-3 years making up for lost time. I even know a few people who dropped out in 2nd year, got married, had a steady job for a few years, and returned after 5-6 years of seeing the world and coming back with renewed interest.

Luckily I had been told that my marks would drop, which they did but only a little bit thankfully since I knew what I was getting into. Plus I'd been told to take classes unrelated to my major because I could find out that I would hate my major and have something to fall back on instead of wasting a year trying to find what I liked. I don't understand people who go to university to only drink and party or the like since it's a waste of everyones time. You can do that stuff without going to university and took a spot of someone who might have wanted to pursue a higher education. Luckily you soon realize who wants to be there and who doesn't and you can make friends accordingly. I have many like-minded friends who enjoy math and sciences and actually want to be at university.

From my experience, the big drop-outs are in programs where knowledge can be tested, rather than evaluated. Engineering has a huge drop out rate, because students fail their classes, whereas I would guess liberal arts students drop-out more or less at their discretion. I have never heard of a student who tried in such a class actually failing it. In engineering, your answer is either right or wrong, not evaluated as a "C" if it looks like the student at least tried.

Dropping out is a good thing!

There are too many people in university who simply should not have been there in the first place.

Many people feel they need a degree "any" degree, and proceed to waste 4 years chasing "BA" throwing money down the toilet.

We need more people in vocational schools, trades, and colleges.

A "BA" is the new "high school diploma". Everyone has one, it essentially has no value.

Student's enrolled after high school are not prepared. My daughter failed 4 of 6 subjects this past semester. She thought that she could "wing" her way through exams, not!. She got kicked out of the program with a expensive life lesson. Note that she doing quite well in night school, and should be ready for her restart in September.

The Canadian Confederation is nothing short of Democratic Discrimination by all of the national PUPPET parties of the Upper/Lower Canada majority against the minority provinces in there never ending quest for power.

To paraphrase President Clinton's campaign manager “It's the political system stupid! “

EQUALITY OR EXIT!

I don't believe blaming public high schools in this case. Although exceptions exist, the vast majority of Ontario students who wish to further their education by attending university receive a solid foundation during their high school years.

From my experience, a number of students who are admitted simply do not have the maturity, drive, or coping skills to succeed at the post-secondary level. Many simply view their first year as an excuse to party away from home.

We place far too much pressure on students to attend university. Quite simply, many do not belong in a purely academic environment. Many more are instead suited to hands-on skills training, but "society" shuns those professions. Until we change those perceptions, our tax dollars will continue fund students who are ill-equipped to successfully pursue the university path.

A study that I carried out at the University of Saskatchewan some years ago might be of interest, and even useful, to persons concerned with first year univerity failure - not least students themselves.
Nearly 1200 students, some 90 per cent of those attending classes in March from all entry colleges except Commerce, completed a 91-item questionnaire designed to pinpoint major and minor problems which they had encountered at university, items that had been compiled after a one-day seminar attended by representatives of students, faculty, Saskatchewan Teachers Federation, Ministry of Education, etc. Later, after decisions had been made as to who should be required to discontinue, analysis of data from the questionnaire identified items that significantly discriminated between students required to discontinue their studies and a matched sample of students who were able to proceed to second year.
We adopted two principles that were different from most previous studies. First, we tried to find out from students what problems they were experiencing at the time they were actually experiencing them, i.e. BEFORE anyone knew who would be required to discontinue university studies. Second, we were concerned simply with finding out what differentiated students who would later be required to discontinue their and students who would not. 27 items discriminated significantly for all colleges; a further 10 items discriminated for individual colleges. Perhaps the fact that about 90 per cent of students voluntarily completed the original 91-item signed inventory is probably unique, verging on the incredible.
If anyone is interested in obtaining the checklist, a summary of the investigation or the final report of some 20 pages, they are welcome (free of charge of course). My email was submitted to the Globe and Mail along with my published comments.

"In addition to a more demanding academic work load than many students coming out of the public high school system are used to..."

I would agree with many of the above comments which argue that the public school system is NOT the problem.

On the contrary-- as an Undergraduate, most of the students I knew who dropped out during their first year had actually attended private schools. They found it much more difficult to adjust to University, where they received less individual attention than they were used to in the private system. And as many of the above comments note, it is increasingly obvious that private schools simply inflate the grades of their students. Grade inflation by private schools effectively sets up students for disappointment- and in some cases, failure- at the University level.

1. Because they are too stupid to be there in the first place.
or
2. Because they were too smart for high school, and they figured that University would be the same (not try, get 100%).

Then or than. Think of it this way; if it has anything to do with time, time has an e, so use then. First this then that. Drives me nuts. University is a completely different animal than any of these students have met before and there are many reasons for failure. Each student has their own reason and any attempt to "pigeon hole" failures is futile. (I must say that fifteen percent seem very reasonable to me).

I hate to say I told you so, but eliminating grade 13 was a big, expensive mistake.

I recall that a lot of kids found out during grade 13 what they were cut out for. Finding that out in first year university is a whole lot more expensive and ultimately wasteful for the taxpayers. I also noticed that first-year out-of-province students in general struggled compared to Ontario students (I was at UW).

Kids then also left grade 13 one year older - 17 is TOO young to go off to university for most. While kids now get some more interesting subjects I wish I could have taken, they also leave with some huge gaps in their basics.

We were told it was about getting aligned with the rest of the continent, but it should have been the other way round (Ontario DID have it right, and yes, everyone else had it wrong.)

Steve - speak for your own province.

In Alberta, graduates must write provincial achievement tests in all of their core courses - tests that make up 50% of their final mark. Teachers are also monitored to ensure that differentials between school mark and exam mark are within 5-7%.

Rick, I am a different Steve but I am from Alberta. I've seen the output from our schools, as new hires at work and all I can say is that, while standardization is a good thing, our low standards are not necessarily a good thing.

I like the point about taking courses that actually require learning "hard knowledge", like science and engineering. These separate those who should be there from those who shouldn't. I doubt that 10% could handle a rigorous curriculum. I saw this again and again when I was at U. Most "bird" courses almost guaranteed a pass, and many a high mark. Profs would sometimes post the exams ahead of time!

Once we were playing cards, when a guy said to his roommate: "Paul, don't you have an essay due tomorrow?" So Paul pulled out his typewriter (this dates me) and while we were dealing the cards, proceeded to complete what we all agreed was the worst essay we'd ever seen. He got 75%. Paul could have come back, but quit. His roommate, in a much more difficult program, worked hard, but flunked out.

What is not stated is that the average arts course, with its 500 to 1,000 students, is actually a big money maker for the universities and they are loath to fail anyone in these money making programs! Getting them to keep switching faculties is another way to keep them bringing in the government grants, year after year.

Its all a big scam and the main result is a generation of young people with enormous debt. The most important education is what one receives in the early grades. The basics allow one to do anything, but few get that grounding. This is what employers want but instead they hire a BA and pray.

They might as well drop out right away and go to college instead of spending four years at university, earning a BA, and then slinging coffee for a few years before going to college.

Even in this economy there are still critical shortages of certain skilled trades workers (e.g., pressure pipe welders); there is no shortage of wait staff with BA's/Ma's in the Humanities from what I have seen!

There are simply too many kids being sent off to university by society.

To succeed in university, students must truly want to be there and engage themselves in their education. Too often, the students I see in trouble at the large university at which I teach are simply lost and have no clue why they should be there. The academic demands are high on students, so a lack of commitment is sure to lead to failure. In the first year classes I have taught, 95% of the students who fail are the ones who have stopped coming to class and have stopped doing their assignments. In effect, they just don't participate in these courses.

I applaud the father above who encouraged his son to do something else before deciding to go to university. In my experience, such students do very well. And if they ultimately choose to do something other than go to university, then university was not that attractive to them as individuals. I find our society sadly seems to send young people the message that not going to university is the same as being a failure.

We as a family have just moved to Scotland from Nova Scotia. I have a 16 year old daughter whom last year in grade 10 at high school got straight A's and in junior high school won the excellence in english prize along with other awards. At high school she didn't have to try very hard to get an A, the marks were generated through classroom projects, the exams they sat at the end of a semester were relaxed and students could even exempt one if they had attended school for most of the semester, which means they often only have to sit three. Fast forward to Scotland....Her peers here have had far more advanced training in all aspects of the curriculum, my daughter's grades went down so much soon after arrival as she simply had not covered a large amount of the work. a tutor had to be assigned to help her in the english subject, and she has had to put in hours of work to catch up with math and chemistry. She has a fantastic work ethic, is driven and very happy here but she was shocked by the high level and intimidated by the exams she has just sat, five in total and no exemptions.
Over here if the student has no desire to go on to university they can graduate from school at 16 and at that point enter a vocational collage, apprenticeship or even start working in jobs that don't require a university degree giving all students options without feeling like they have failed for not going on to uni.
After six months of hard work, the results of my daughters exams are back and she did well but no thanks to the high school she attended in NS.
As for uni drop out rates here? Very low indeed.

University isn't for everyone - including academically 'gifted' high school graduates. Many kids go on to university for job training purposes only to discover that only occurs in the professional colleges, many of which are not "direct-entry," meaning qualifying courses usually in a college of liberal arts and sciences must be taken beforehand. The vast majority of entrants to a college of arts and science are often unprepared for the workload for full-time studies (9 c.u./term) with inadequate basic English and Math skills.
This is a long-standing problem that for many years has been handed off to post-secondary institutions by the high school system. No one at the policy level is prepared to fix the problem, the rationale being that people don't require basic English and math skills for most entry-level jobs. These skills are expected of Classics professors and nuclear physicists, not supermarket stock boys or fast-food burger flippers -- hence the policy inertia for the secondary level curriculum. University screens out the rest, but often only after thousands of dollars (and many months) have been wasted.
Meanwhile colleges of applied science and technology do provide many direct-entry training for careers in serious need of qualified applicants. Many of these careers pay very well - better than a lot of people with Bachelors degrees could expect to be paid. Also these certifications and diplomas can often be earned with basic high school diploma-level English and math. Most important, these programs come at a much lower cost, in terms of student debt, and students start paid employment upon graduation.
A university education is certainly a valuable thing but it is not necessarily "job-training." For those truly keen academicians, willing to slog through remedial English and math, university will still be there when you are ready.

"Education has rewards for the mind but money is often not one of them." I like this quote very much and when I went to university, was well aware that university in and of itself was not a guarantee for a job. Have we lost sight of that and now don't read our kids well, pushing them to an academic steam that is not for them?

My son's girlfriend did very well in high school but not well at all in first year, well enough to return but not operating from a position of strength. She didn't really want to go back to second year but was encouraged to by her academic counsellor at university. She failed miserably. She's now very much down on herself and without any appreciable skills, saddled with a debt she has little hope of paying off any time in the future from her minimum wage job. Whose fault is this? Of course, first responsibillity rests with her but if universities are counselling students to stay in when they were struggling as much as she seemed to be, you wonder if there are blinders on the counsellors to other, more suitable options.

I'm curious why you proceeded with this blog entry if you in fact thought the number would be higher... at least change the title to reflect the reality of the situation. 15% doesn't seem high to me at all considering all the various reasons: financial, emotional, academic, family situations, etc. etc.

It would be interesting to compare the community college dropout rate for first year with the university dropout rate. With absolutely no backgroun knowledge, I would suspect it's not zero .. would it be 5%, 10%?

And please have someone edit your blog. The grammar errors are distracting.

"This results in students taking longer then four years to complete their undergraduate degree."

While those who never master the difference between "then" and "than" may never graduate.

I graduated from high school atih a 65% average- mediocre grades which primarily occurred as a result of boredom with the subject matter, and teenage attitude.

However, once I got into my undergraduate degree program, I found the curriculum challenging and exciting, with extremely inspiring professors. I then watched my grades increase by 10% after first-year, then 20% by second-year, and so on. I now have a master's degree with a 4.0 GPA.

What anyone gets out of their education is what they are willing to put in to it... And in my case, the curriculum and quality of teaching had much more relevance than my high school grades would ever have indicated.

It must be remembered that a university education is supposed to be special, and that few should be able to pass through the gauntlet, through a mix of hard work and intelligence.

If it were easy, then it wouldn't be important or relevant.

The mistake is to believe universities when they say they want everyone to suceed. Rather, what the first to second year failure rate. Then the second the third. Universites don't have space in upper year classes for all the students they take in for first year. These student are there so the Uni. can take their money and then kick them out. This helps pay for the upper year classes where the size is smaller. If this wasn't the plan then why does the Uni have smaller class rooms? I mean, if all first year classes are 400 + and the Uni was planing of having most of its students grad, then 4th year classes should be 300+ no? So what happens? Unis are money making buisnesses. If they wanted to reduce the failure rate they could. Its been studied to death. But they don't, so they do minimal efforts in this regard.

JH

I graduated from high school atih a 65% average- mediocre grades which primarily occurred as a result of boredom with the subject matter, and teenage attitude.

However, once I got into my undergraduate degree program, I found the curriculum challenging and exciting, with extremely inspiring professors. I then watched my grades increase by 10% after first-year, then 20% by second-year, and so on. I now have a master's degree with a 4.0 GPA.

What anyone gets out of their education is what they are willing to put in to it... And in my case, the curriculum and quality of teaching had much more relevance than my high school grades would ever have indicated.

It must be remembered that a university education is supposed to be special, and that few should be able to pass through the gauntlet, through a mix of hard work and intelligence.

If it were easy, then it wouldn't be important or relevant.

===============================

Same elitest bs that gets posted here daily. So you think your special hun? What university would take someone with a 65 average? Did you win the "lets let another person in lotery?" Thats the question I would be asking rather then crowing about ones academic achievments.

JH

It's interesting to see the views of people on this blog (By the way, the blog itself did not really help in any way). I've failed the first year & took a year out working in a minimum wages job, whilst concentrating on improving my practical skills on the piano & working on passing my driving test. I'm now 20 & failed to enjoy my course at university (BA Music), although I still have the passion to continue with performing (& perhaps eventually teaching music/piano at some sort of level). I DO feel that I went to university because society & parents makes out that getting a degree is the greatest necessity in life.
Now, after taking a year out, my parents want me to go back to university, whereas I would prefer to take more time out to concentrate on applying to a music college. I feel I would be in a much better evironment & could genuinely enjoy what I do...However, auditions are required to get into the music college & although many people fail it, then try again, my parents feel that this would be a waste of time for me to try out for this. This is because of preparation time for the audition (not something you could stroll into, half-arsed).
Universities definitely have that business factor about them, as they are willing to take back people who have failed first year more than once & this makes me think twice about going down that path again. But my parents seem to think I'm wasting so much time not being at university & want me to get back into it ASAP.
Not sure if there are any people that have gone down the 'musical' road..but would definietely appreciate any sort of opinions.

There sure are some stupid comments posted here. It doesn't surprise me that a good portion of the stupidest comments come from University graduates. I especially think it funny that one "brain" here states that we need more people in trades and college, but in the same breath also states that a BA is the new High School Diploma. If a BA is the new "High School Diploma" then what good is a 2 year College Diploma?

I have a 2 year diploma in Industrial Automation and, frankly, I think it is just another worthless piece of paper to add to all the other worthless pieces of paper I have earned. It certainly isn't helping me to get a job when everybody wants TQ certified people, even though many of the skills covered in Trades apprenticeships were also part of my curriculum.

What marx didn't understand is that class is a natural function of of the human mind, and is a subset of social status, cliques and divisions, that most adults never truly grow out of (which makes me question the all the BS I've ever been told about "adults" when I was growing up).

I think we could make a good case for teh chidlishness many high achiever (not all, you know you are, always wearing your heart on your sleeve, and pained by the suffering of others, wanting to uplift all, rather then condemn if you had the power)

Although people like to think university is for the "best and brightest", given that it's taken human kind millions of years and we still have war and poverty, and university professors still have their neolithic brains. Of these institutions which I am a part, I highly doubt they are the "best and brightest", hard working? yes, genetically capable? yes, but particularly bright? Universities are closed self-selecting societies, it social status grand circle jerk.

I don't know about you, but any world that rationalizes economic oppression of the burger flippers, and retail sales clerks of the world, into lives of economic insecurity does not seem like it is ruled by wise nor rational people.

What is missing from this world is not more jobs or job skills, professors, it's more ethical, moral and spiritual development. To be compassionate to those who aren't as fortunate in the birth lottery, where they ended up, what schools they went to, the quality of the social environment (bullying, etc). The general powerlessness of mankind and the crude bodies and minds which we inhabit, which too many people are do not scrutinize whatever is generated by the flawed nervous system.

Most adults here are acting like children or bragging (i.e. I'm rich/economically independent and I didn't go to university).

Even if everyone was equally talented, someone would still have to work at wal mart, there are only a finite amount of jobs.

University is now the new justification for class division and elitism and snobbery. You'd think intelligent people would have moved beyond this, and be working towards the day far in the future that status, class, misery, competition, the feral and primitive psychology which has our world trapped in so many problems is finally overcome by the hard work and general love for humanity. Those of us who see we are trapped in a horrible universe which oppresses us and pits us against one another, because we are weak animals who are immature and all too often incapable of sanity.

Do not confuse intellectual skills of a university, with real bonafide intelligence. An intelligent person is one who is constantly devleoping themselves, to be vigilant against his or her animal weaknesses and degeneracy, and to move beyond the feral trappings of the past, which create endless hostility, suffering and antaognisms between people.

Most educated people who are trapped through fate by their evolutionary heritage, it is not a badge of honor to be callous an unconcerned about the suffering of others.

Nor is it a badge of honor to feel one superior to others and look down on them for a world they did not choose to be born into, nor with the evolutionary flaws they carry with them by no fault of their own.

No one chose to be who they are, remember it, nor the body and mind they would inhabit. This most important fact is all too oft forgotten.

We cannot help nor save everyone, but our long term goal should be the enrichment and uplifting of all, despite the naysayers.

Interesting perspective, Status and Class. Thanks for adding it.

its "than", not "then"

A student of 2 Unversities one in Egypt and the other is in Ontario and one college in Ontario, haven't graduated from any of them, got 16000$ of OSAP debt...worked as Mushroom picker for 2 days(underthetable)got 60$, worked in Macs for 2 weeks got 150$, Trained in a company called WEBHELP in montreal for 2 weeks got paid 500$(closed now=can't get reference), did one project 4 hours for CARA Operations got 100$ then got fired when i informed the comapny i cannot travel to another city (can't get reference too)...and these are all the jobs i worked and all the income i got...want to know more? :(

Honestly, I think there are sooo many reasons why kids drop out. Why do students drop out of high school? Their reasons are many. They were the first friends I'd ever been with for that long and they brutally dumped me. business do not call registry

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