The polytechnics conundrum

Alex Usher, June 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM

Twenty years ago, Canada had a pretty strict division between universities and colleges.  One provided shorter, applied programs, mostly vocational in nature, while the other provided longer, more theoretical programs, which often ended in professional designations.  They also conducted research, which was verboten at the colleges.

Since then, provincial governments in British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario have been messing with these nice distinct categories.  Some colleges became "university colleges."  Some were allowed to issue degrees, either on their own or through other institutions.  Some of these degrees were identical to those given out by universities, others were given the designation "applied degrees."  Some began dabbling in what was known as "applied" research (a somewhat vague term which usually implies research with a direct application to individual firms' manufacturing processes).

A number of these institutions eventually "graduated" (so to speak), from being community colleges to being universities, usually via an intermediate step of being a "degree-granting college."  Ryerson, Grant McEwan, Mount Royal, Vancouver Island, Thomson Rivers, Capilano and Kwantlen Polytechnic Universities all gained their university status in this manner.  But there are still about a dozen colleges that are granting degrees, and about four times that many dabbling in applied research in some way.  Nine of them, in particular - Humber, Seneca, Algonquin, Conestoga, Sheridan, George Brown and Olds Colleges, the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology (SAIT) and the British Columbia Institute of Technology (BCIT) - joined together five years ago to form Polytechnics Canada, which is now acting as chief proselytizer for the polytechnics concept.

So what is a Polytechnic? 

That question, unfortunately, is not easily answered.  The first crack at trying to define the term was taken by the New Brunswick Commission on Post-Secondary Education, which recommended turning the University of New Brunswick's Saint John campus into a "polytechnic."  In an attempt to sell this idea, the report's authors tried to convince people that this was an institutional model that was sweeping the world, and provided as examples L'Ecole Polytechnique in France, polytechnic colleges in New Zealand and the Finnish polytechnics.  Unfortunately, this was total nonsense; Polytechnique is an elite university-level engineering program, while New Zealand's polytechnics are more or less identical to traditional Canadian community colleges, so it was quite unclear what model, exactly, the report's authors were proposing.  Add to this the frankly odd idea of the proposed institution offering everything from apprenticeships to doctorates and one got the sense that a polytechnic was more a chimera than a serious educational model.

That said, the concept of delivering advanced, applied degree-level education at an institution that is not a university is not a particularly radical one.  Lots of countries do it: Germany's Fachhochschule, the Dutch HBOs and the Finnish polytechnics are all examples of institutions giving degrees in "applied higher education" - and degrees which can lead to further study at the Master's level. 

In Canada, however, we have trouble with this concept.  Governments that have tried to introduce new hybrid degrees have rarely taken the time to look at how these new degrees will fit within the existing credential system.  Meanwhile, more established universities take a near-blanket opposition to recognizing these new degrees as equivalent to the ones they provide (the usual reason is that the educators at these newer degree providers frequently don't hold doctorates or aren't full-time academics - a rationale that makes ever less sense given the increasing role of graduate students and sessional lecturers in undergraduate education at more established institutions).  Also, given the experience of Ryerson, Mount Royal, and others, universities suspect that what these polytechnics really want is to become universities and, frankly, they aren't keen on more competition.

But is this what polytechnics really want?  Probably not.

When asked, they all say they would prefer to pioneer their own model of education, and all of them seem quite sincere on that point.  But there is no evidence that the polytechnics have any kind of common, distinct approach on the pedagogical front.  Is there something different about the teaching in polytechnics that distinguishes them from both colleges and universities?  Is there something different about the subjects taught or the learning environments?  Nearly everybody feels that the answer to these questions is yes, but few are convincing when it comes to details.  The words "applied learning" get thrown around a lot, but its not really clear what they mean.

What the polytechnics do agree on is research: these are the colleges that are most "research intensive" (though there is a lot of applied research being done in non-Polytechnic colleges as well) and they are finding an increasingly receptive audience for their activities, both in industry and in government.  It is lobbying on these activities that takes up the bulk of Polytechnics Canada's time and, shrewdly, they seem to be focusing much less on getting "their share" of granting council funds and much more on getting the government to start paying attention to the overall problem of "applied research," which they just happen to be good at.  As I intimated in my last post, I think this strategy has legs and that the polytechnics will likely reap the benefits of it for years to come.

However, for polytechnics to get traction over the long term, they probably need to get serious about the pedagogical issue.  Without being able to lay claim to some kind of distinct pedagogy, they are likely to be doomed to being seen as "colleges plus" or "universities minus" in popular thought.

There are basically two ways these institutions could go with the pedagogy.  The first is to become really "applied universities" on the German, Dutch and Finnish models - that is, institutions with a fair bit of overlap with universities, but with a somewhat more applied feel to them.  Basically, this means a lot of co-op type education and with curricula somewhat more linked to the labour market than is the case at more traditional universities.  However, this kind of focus would probably take them away in the medium-term from any commitment to things like apprenticeships, which are too vocationally and skills-oriented to be easily included in a university- or university-like set-up. 

The second possibility would be for polytechnics to shift away from a concern with bachelor-type credentials and turn themselves effectively into advanced industry training and research centres.  That is, turn them into "Colleges of Industry" - with a much greater focus on specifically industrial research and skills training.  These kinds of institutions would ask local businesses to come in and co-write the curriculum across the board, the way they currently do with apprenticeships.  There would be less call for any kind of theoretical component to the curriculum, and possibly a lot less of the general arts and access programs, as well.

The problem is that neither of these models would necessarily work for all of Polytechnics Canada's members.  Humber and Seneca Colleges, which already have tie-ups with Guelph and York Universities, respectively, are already fairly close to the first model, while SAIT is probably closer to the second model.

So do polytechnics have a future?  As a political coalition, almost certainly.  As long as the federal government has a tap for research dollars and an interest in subsidizing applied research, there's probably a market for an organization that concentrates primarily on this.  As an educational model, though, a lot more meat has to be put on the existing bones to make it viable, and provincial governments need to be convinced to start finding ways to accommodate a "third way" in their educational policies. 

That's a much harder, but not impossible, job.  But other countries have shown that this kind of institution can succeed; it's worth Canada's while for policy makers to consider whether we need a third model, as well.

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Comments

One thing that is quite backward in Ontario is the stranglehold that universities have had on delivering university courses. Any other jurisdiction I've lived and gone to school in (Oregon and British Columbia) have community colleges offering the first two years of university programs.

For example, one can/could take their first two years of Engineering at a community college and then transfer to a university for the last two.

This scenario has a couple of advantages. For one, not every young student is ready to go off to a big, impersonal university right away, so attending a community college is less of a culture shock for them. Also, it is much more financially manageable to go to a community college for your first two years than it is to go to a university, especially if the university is far, far away and you can live at home and attend a community college. Finally, going to a community college allows students who have the ability, but didn't have the interest to perform well in high school to enter a program with less demanding enrollment criteria and then pull their socks up for two years before making the move to a university.

Comment by Garrett - June 7, 2010 at 5:25 PM

One of the most interesting institutions to evolve in Canada in recent years is Thompson Rivers University in Kamploops, BC. Where else in Canada can you take an apprenticeship as a Heavy Duty Mechanic or study for an MBA at the same campus?

But why not?

Further to Garrett's excellent comments the potential for laddering over a person’s career is an area where Canada is very weak. What about the Heavy Duty Mechanic who moves up into management and then would like to (or needs to) learn more about business management or who would like to start their own shop?

I know that in Ontario that a person’s prior learning and experience would be completely ignored in the university application process, and that is fundamentally wrong. (As a graduate of a three-year engineering technology program at an Ontario college I found that when I later applied to an Ontario university that they only were interested in my high-school transcripts, totally ignoring the fact that I had attended and performed very well at an Ontario college. I actually had to leave the province to get recognition for my Ontario credentials.)

As I see it the polytechnics and universities like TRU have evolved to fulfill a need that the universities cannot (or refuse to) fulfill in terms of life long learning and educational laddering.

Comment by N. Cole - June 8, 2010 at 2:06 AM

And on the applied research front, imagine a project to develop and test a clean burning and efficient hybrid diesel truck for the transportation industry.

Wouldn’t an institution that could pull together a team including PhD’s in Mechanical Engineering and experienced technologists and Heavy Duty Mechanics perhaps be more able than a university who employed only academics.

Over my career I have been involved in projects of a similar nature and I have seen first hand just how out of touch with reality that many university researchers are. A little interaction with ‘practioners’ could go a long way in increasing the relevancy of academic research in many fields of science, engineering, and technology.

Comment by N. Cole - June 8, 2010 at 2:24 AM

One of the issues that has arisen from the college-turned-university model is that university courses tend to nearly always be taught by PhDs. When a college turns into a university, what has happened in the past is current college faculty (most of whom have a master's at best) are granted tenure automatically (despite the fact that most of them have never published a research paper in their lives), and the school begins hiring PhDs without tenure, and then demand that the PhDs produce (typically applied) research on top of high teaching demands. The new faculty are more employable in universities but lack the security that the college faculty have, creating a two-tier system in the faculty.

Comment by Spelling.Pls - June 8, 2010 at 7:03 AM

A primary driving force in the development of polytechnics (from colleges) is financial.

In Ontario for example a college student studying full time is funded $6000 by the province (+$2000 in tuition). A university student studying full time is funded of $8500 by the province (+ $4500 tuition).

So if these applied degrees are funded at the university levels (and with higher tuitions), who can blame the colleges? The colleges in Ontario are the most poorly funded in the country and this reflects the disdain that the provincial politicians generally have for applied learning at the post-secondary level.

Add in the extra potential federal revenue available for research grants that the universities currently do very well with, and who could blame the colleges for these initiatives?

Comment by Journeyman - June 8, 2010 at 7:33 AM

Guillaume D: It's not much of a brain drain if your friend couldn't figure out in advance that her college 'degree' wouldn't be accepted as such by Canadian institutions.
Colleges are not universities, and a 'degree' is not treated as such because it does not have the requisite breadth nor vigor of a university degree.

Comment by oh please - June 8, 2010 at 12:27 PM

I’ve seen the value of polytechnic colleges first hand. I’m originally from Nova Scotia and I did Sheridan’s Bachelor in Animation degree in Oakville. I was lucky enough to get accepted into the program which is pretty competitive. My friends back home went to university at Mount Allison or Dal or Acadia and did 4 year arts degrees. When we graduated and compared resumes right out of school, I had plenty of co-op placements and tangible work experience. They had a blank page and a big student debt. We all went to school for 4 years but I came out of it and got right into a job that I love. They’re working at Chapters and Sobeys because, just like everyone else in our age cohort back home, they have a generic Bachelor of Arts degree. A couple are going back to NSCC to get a diploma or certificate in something that will separate them from the pack get them a job. I find it funny that NSCC has become a finishing school for mighty Dal!

Comment by Michelle - June 8, 2010 at 12:29 PM

I hear what N.Cole and Journeyman are saying about the financial incentive that universities have in not recognizing college degrees for grad studies and making college students basically redo a university bachelor degree before going to do a master’s. I did a college degree in Ontario (very enjoyable) and went into the world of work (fun!) while one of my classmates wanted to go on and do a master’s. She couldn’t get into any Canadian university because they wouldn’t recognize her “college” degree as meeting the prerequisites. They were happy to give her one year credit towards an undergraduate degree if she wanted to start over on a bachelor of arts.
Upset she applied to the US and got into grad school in Montana where she was welcomed with open arms. As a (now) taxpayer, it upsets me that I’m subsidizing university and college degrees with my tax dollars and the universities are forcing college degree grads to go abroad for grad school?
I asked her on facebook if she planned on coming back to Canada after grad school and she laughed. Great, and I thought the brain drain got fixed in the late 90s?

Comment by Guillaume D. - June 8, 2010 at 1:18 PM

Perhaps one area the Mr. Usher could expand upon is the unique system in Quebec where the CEGEP’s (colleges) act directly as feeders or prep schools to the universities and polytechnics there. Students who finish grade 11 all move to a CEGEP and then have a choice of vocational or university/polytechnic prep programs.

Since Ontario is now beginning to offer senior high-school students the opportunity for “dual-credit” programs in the trades (i.e., a high-school credit and a college level apprenticeship credit earned concurrently at a college campus), they seem to be moving this direction by default anyway. Perhaps these sorts of moves, and including the role of the polytechnics, need more clarity and planning instead of just happening and evolving over time.

Bob Rea headed a commission in Ontario a few years ago with the intention of resolving some of these issues but of course, just as happened in New Brunswick, the university lobby kicked into high gear and blocked any progress and rationalization or integration in the design of the post-secondary system. As Guillaume D. and Journeyman have already stated it all comes down to money and the universities have by far the most to lose.

Comment by Joel - June 8, 2010 at 2:19 PM

oh Please wrote:

"Colleges are not universities, and a 'degree' is not treated as such because it does not have the requisite breadth nor vigor of a university degree."

I think that you are missing the key point of Mr. Usher's article. Certain colleges (polytechnics) and their programs are being bolstered as required to become the equivalent of university undergraduate programs through changes in curriculum, facilities, and faculty qualifications. In the field of engineering for example I know of at least one of the polytechnics that has applied for professional engineering accreditation for their engineering program. Similar moves will no doubt come in the areas of nursing, accounting, etc.

Perhaps the more important question is why have the universities moved into the field of vocational training so heavily? How does training a registered nurse, a professional engineer, or a chartered accountant at a university make sense within their mandate?

The original mandate of the colleges was vocational training and they are very good at it. Just because the accreditation requirements evolved from a two-year diploma to a three-year diploma, to a four year degree (in nursing for example) should not shut these institutions out of this ‘business’.

Comment by Joel - June 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM

Guillaume and Joel. I agree with your post (taxpayer here too) and I went to both university and college, but not in that order.

Seems like the federal and provincial governments are spending a lot of time and effort recruiting international students to Canada (to fight our aging population, low domestic birth rate, etc.), but how do we recognize their credentials? Does someone from Poland with a three-year Bachelor degree (seems to be the post-Bologna standard) get into a Master’s program at UofT? If so, why doesn’t a four-year college grad from Manitoba? If not, why would anyone want to come to Canada to study if they have to start over? Does Australia have the same barriers?

Journeyman: do universities get funded more per grad student than per undergrad? What about international vs. domestic students?

Thank you Alex for this article. It is an interesting subject for armchair policy wonks.

Comment by Todd the Technician - June 8, 2010 at 3:59 PM

Todd, you've brought up an important point. In many other countries the definition of what is deemed a baccalaureate degree varies widely, as does the definition of a ‘university’. In my life I have met many “engineers” and other professionals who are internationally trained who wouldn’t meet the Canadian requirements (the proverbial, and too often self-defined, ‘engineer’ driving a cab).

Perhaps then we should be looking to other countries (or blocks like the EU) to harmonize our definitions. I think that we would find (to the horror of our traditional universities) that it is they who are out of step with present day reality.

Also I agree with the other comments regarding the ‘laddering’ approach to post-secondary education. Canada is generally behind the times in this regard.

Comment by Dan H. - June 9, 2010 at 8:51 PM

Hi everyone. Great discussion and I appreciate the comments.

I think Dan H. touches on a point which will be very important to improving both laddering and mobility wihtin the present system, and that is having some kind of standard for baccalaureate (or master's or PhD) graduation. If we had this, there would be a great deal less controversy over whether a particular "type" of institution was able to deliver the necessary program, as well as less hoo-hah about laddering between different types of degree.

(That said, I am less convinced that Dan that such an arrangement would in fact show universities to be wildly out of step with reality.)

Comment by Alex Usher - June 10, 2010 at 5:35 AM

Well, I have three different comments.

1) I've been teaching at Kwantlen for decades; it went from being called Kwantlen College to Kwantlen University College to Kwantlen Polytechnic University primarily to make the provincial government look as if it was doing something. But apart from legislative changes which gave us a Senate, etc., there has been no increase in funding. We're still a community college (and our region needs us to continue in that role), with 3rd and 4th year courses tacked on, at the expense of our provision of access to those who need 1st and 2nd year courses. We're still funded for half the number of students in relation to our region's population as the rest of the province; why can't the government fix that inequity in access for our region, along with just changing our name and our legislation?

2) Why are we not looking south of our borders for good ideas, as well as to Europe, Australia & New Zealand? What about Cal Poly, Rochester Polytechnic, Worcester Polytechnic, MIT, Cal Tech, etc.? We can learn things from them too.

3) I sure agree that Canada needs a common standard for Bachelor degrees, with a good dose of general, liberal ed in all of them, as well as a good dose of math. If we don't implement that, all Bachelor degrees are demeaned. (And while we're at it, can we dump our grade-inflated system whereby students can get A's with just 80% in a course?)

Enough for now. Thanks for the stimulating discussion...

Comment by Geoff Dean - June 10, 2010 at 2:37 PM

@Joel: I'm not sure what you're driving at about nursing programs in particular - full four-year BScN degrees are absolutely offered at various colleges around the country, though the specifics vary from province to province. The discussion of engineering seems odd as well; engineers are not technicians or technologists, and I'm not aware that professional engineers have ever been trained outside a university (or technical university) setting. Ryerson is not and has never been equivalent to Capilano College or Seneca, the former use of "polytechnic" in its name notwithstanding.

Comment by JGHali - June 11, 2010 at 9:47 PM

JGHali: It is very simple actually. In Ontario at least nursing programs were traditionally delivered by the colleges. A few years ago the requirements changed and a four-year degree became the minimum requirement. Since the colleges could not confer these degrees then they all had to 'partner' with a university or get out of nursing education. The students may never set foot at the university yet they still get the university’s piece of paper upon graduation. The universities also receive a good chuck of the government funding and tuition fees of course.

But why are the universities involved at all in this vocational training? Aren’t universities institutions designed for advanced learning, not vocational training? Just because that vocation requires four years of training, why are the colleges not allowed to deliver it without the involvement of a university? (And wouldn't an experienced nurse be a better nursing teacher than a professor who has never worked hands-on in that field?)

As for engineering the colleges are now delivering 4-yr degrees that are the 'equivalent' of an undergraduate engineering degree. Graduates are now welcome to apply to the PEO for licensing and they have to pick-up a couple of credits (or do tests) since the programs are not yet officially accredited. At least one of these programs is currently under evaluation by the CEAB.

If the colleges have the facilities, qualified faculty, and their programs meet the academic standards of the professional bodies in engineering, nursing, accounting, or whatever, why should they be barred from this activity? Any barriers beyond this are artificial and are only inventions of the universities try to protect their ‘turf’.

Comment by Joel - June 12, 2010 at 9:47 PM

I'm still not sure what your point is. Changes in nursing education have been driven by the nursing profession, some members of which might question the label of "vocational training". The fact remains that colleges continue to run nursing programs; that the BScN/BN degrees are formally granted by a university is rather immaterial. Suggesting that this implies teaching by professors with no "hands-on" nursing experience instead is ill-informed. It seems especially silly in light of the many weeks of practicums that student nurses are required to complete.

Engineering is not a vocation and has always been the purview of universities. You seem to undermine your own point (?) by pointing to programs delivered at colleges - in what respect are universities supposedly protecting their "turf" in these examples?

Comment by JGHali - June 13, 2010 at 12:26 AM

I suppose that the key questions are:

1) Are 'jobs' such as an engineer, nurse, or accountant that require 4-yr bachelor’s degrees to become certified "vocations"?

2) Should the universities or colleges/polytechnics be primarily mandated with providing the education for "vocations"?

3) Should the universities and the colleges/polytechnics be in competition or should they be complementary (like the CEGEP system in Quebec)?

I agree with Alex Usher in that these sorts of "system design" issues and the development of national standards should be a national priority. Unfortunately while the rest of the world is moving in this direction we can't even get consensus between (or even within) provinces.

Comment by Joel - June 13, 2010 at 10:11 PM

The evolution of these polytechnics seems to be following a path similar to the German/Austrian/Swiss "Fachhochschule" (or Applied Science Universities). These institutions deliver baccalaureate and masters degrees meeting the European (Bologna) requirements and these institutions differ from the traditional “Universitaten”.

There are standard pathways for skilled trades graduates to obtain degrees, and in general the tradespeople have much more respect and a higher social standing than they do in Canada.

If Europe can get together on this issue why can't the Canadian provinces?

Comment by Klaus - June 15, 2010 at 11:10 AM

@Joel: I'd say engineering, nursing, and accountancy professional organizations are in a better position to comment on that question than anyone here. I think that colleges and universities already operate in a complementary fashion, notwithstanding this article.

It's also not the case that Fachhochschule have a precise equivalent in Canada; the German degree system has been quite different in structure until very recently.

At some point, I find these discussions rather pointless. Ryerson changed its name, and increased its emphasis on graduate education and research, but it remains quite a different institution from either UofT or York. Likewise, that the Technical University of NS got folded into Dal in the 90s didn't change much the school's programs apart from their administration. Should we split off faculties of medicine into separate institutions too, something that has occurred as recently as 2004 in Austria?

Or is there simply a very limited scope to these kinds of cross-border comparisons?

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It is financial, and there's no way around that. Although I'd be interested to know the practical difference between a university and a polytechnic, sounds like etymologically the same sort of institution. New York SEO would probably greatly benefit this site.

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Comment by Brad99 - March 9, 2011 at 11:44 AM

I think that polytechnicas university are a great idea; however employees may not place as high of a valie on a degree earned from a polytech university versus a more established one.

Trident Online University is an online college offering online degrees.

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