This man can't be serious about teaming with Athabasca. That would be like shooting the idea in the foot before it even starts. No offence to Athabasca but it does not have the greatest reputation. We need to look at Athabasca's successes and failures as a learning experience not partner with them.

Here are some ideas that should be on the table:

a) Create an ‘Ontario University System’ with formal articulations between institutions and the colleges. (e.g., a student could spend two years at a college and then continue seamlessly into any university; this is common practice in many US states and is similar to Quebec’s system).

b) Combine the function and administration of some of the smaller universities with the local college to form degree granting polytechnics which focus on career education and undergraduate degrees.

c) Combine the administration of certain universities to gain efficiencies from lower administrative costs. A perfect example is in Waterloo Ontario where there are two universities with-in a stone’s throw of each other each with huge overlapping bureaucracies and competing programs in some areas.

d) Create an ‘Open University’ that gives adults appropriate credit for previous learning at college, university, short-industrial training programs, or even specific business/industrial experience. (The UK’s ‘open university’ might be an appropriate model.)

Our present university system was designed in the middle ages to train young monks for the priesthood and has remained virtually unchanged in over 800yrs. The modern requirements for ongoing adult education and career training are not being met by the existing self-serving system. For example many university graduates end up studying at college after graduation to learn applied, career oriented, skills and knowledge. Who ever dreamed that this would be a common pathway when the system was created in the 1960’s?

"Further, the additional students will be plucked from the students who were not going to be admitted to university or college - meaning students with lower academic averages coming out of high school."

The entrance average at U of T or Queen's is roughly 88% (and, I believe, even higher in the sciences and business). So while, yes, these new university-bound students might have lower averages, it's entirely possible they'll still have grades in the 80s and high 70s - hardly students who will be unable to handle the pressure of university.

@Jeff

The point of the argument is these students are more likely to require academic supports. To properly education these new students, the government must invest a large sum of money.

In terms of handling the pressure of university, this column should give us all pause:
http://www.universityaffairs.ca/has-ontario-taught-its-high-school-students-not-to-think.aspx

This McGuinty is really the biggest fool. He takes Ontario from disaster to disaster. What is the point of adding more student places when the existing graduates cannot find a job? If he thinks that foreign students will be financing his education department he is living in clouds cuckoo land. The universities and colleges in Ontario already are full of foreign students all expenses paid for by Canadian tax payers. They are either refugees or on OSAP. When foreign students come to Canada within the first year they get married to a local and are reclassified as immigrants and can apply for OSAP. While in Canada they are legally allowed to work and take jobs from local Canadians. After 2 years they can apply for permanent resident. A university degree takes at least 4 years, so Mr McGuinty who really is financing whom? McGuinty economics! All you are doing is flooding Ontario and Canada with more people chasing the few jobs that are available. Another McGuinty economic disaster!

Joey: Very interesting article (from that link).

On a similar vein was a study by Seneca College released yesterday but not widely reported in the media (probably becuase it concerns colleges and not universities)...

"Findings of the Seneca-led College Mathematics Project (CMP) show the need for substantial improvement by students in post-secondary mathematics as Ontario moves to a knowledge-based economy driven by careers requiring strong mathematics skills.

The CMP’s province-wide research finds that one-third of all those in first semester mathematics are at risk of not completing their chosen programs as mathematics is the underpinning for many programs, particularly in business and technology."

http://collegemathproject.senecac.on.ca/cmp/index.php

McGuinty is a first class clown. Clearly he doesn't know what problems exist in Ontario schools, which account for our dismal performance. He doesn't know that the Ontario methodology of choice, constructivism and discovery learning, continue to drive classroom experience and continue to leave in it's wake generations of students who never grasp sufficient grounding in basics. This results in humiliation, as our institutions of higher learning are offering an ever increasing number of remedial programs, including mathematics.

According to a University of Western Ontario student newspaper article, Ontario secondary graduates are not to be trusted in terms of their graduating average. Both Alberta and Quebec subtract 6 per cent from all Ontario averages before considering an applicants chances for being admitted to one of their universities.

mcGuinty also fails to appreciate that the Ontario curricula is largely an American document, a document which has failed America and is now in the process of being rapidly dismantled and rebuilt. Arne Duncan, the new secretary of education, wants America to regain it's title as the best educational community in the world, an honour it once held prior to the liberalization of their system. To achieve this States will now have clearly stated outcomes, teachers will select the best methodology for achieving the outcomes, secondary schools will have exit exams and the content of the exit exams will be well known, so that the private sector can provide well aligned support materials. Transparency, alignment, accountability will increase thus resulting in far greater definition. meanwhile McGuinty's Ontario will become have not once again, as the educational giant to the south moves past us

Mic:

I think you are a bit confused on the definition of "foreign student". The foreign students the McGuinty government are referring to are students coming to Canada on a study permit, with the necessary funds to support their study (in most cases). International students pay a significant amount more in tuition then a Canadian or Permanent Resident would. The increased tuition fee covers the portion that Canadian students have subsidized by the government. International students cannot apply for OSAP.

Additionally it's very rare for an international student to get married in their first year to a Canadian just to receive their immigration status here. In fact, just marrying a Canadian does not give you permanent residency here.

What Canada does have is a First Experience Class system, where international students who have completed a Canadian degree and stay in Canada to work for three years, can apply for fast-tracked permanent residency.

McGuinty's government took a school to court a couple of years ago as they wanted to offer credits to foreign students but the government said that they were not allowed. And now they propose that they are big supporters of this. Does this guy ever take a position - I thought he had values but he seems to move where-ever the wind is blowing!

George: Speak for the system you know. As a Queen's graduate I can tell you that our Political Studies department is nothing like what the Americans do. They wish they had such a system. It would mean they'd moved beyond the outdated IR only methods that were proving unwieldy even before the end of the Cold War and had moved on to more IPE integrated techniques.

I can, however, attest that not all schools are created equal. I'm about to finish a second degree, this one at York University. The difference in terms of work put in and grade achieved are... substantial. If I were looking at York grades I would subtract at least about 6% before comparing it to a Queen's grade. This is in part because York doesn't calculate its final grades based on percentages but based on letter grades. For starters that means someone with an 80 looks the same on paper as someone with an 89. At Queen's the difference between an 82 and an 84 would have been enough to disqualify you from certain research opportunities. Sadly, I hear Queen's is attempting some sort of letter system to deal with the fact that, because they use a different grading scale, the marks of many graduates just don't seem competitive despite superior ability (and believe me, after having endured some peer review and editing sessions, the gulf is wider than you might imagine).

I do think we need to better evaluate universities and look at what kind of grades they're awarding and for what level of work. A translation scale, of a sort.

Also, why is there so much emphasis on creating more university spots? I keep hearing about people with university degrees going off to do the same thing as high school (only) graduates, or having to go to college to get the actual skills they need. University is more about the academic pursuit and open ended learning that may well suit professional studies but isn't actually essential for most jobs.

We need to stop this elitist attitude when it comes to education. We've been conning people into thinking the ONLY way to go is University, because anything else is rather blaze'. That's not ok. For starters, it clearly isn't for everyone. Secondly, think about how much time and money people are wasting when they needed nothing more than a 2 year college degree. Some of my friends are in that boat right now. It's costing them about what they paid for their first year costs at Queen's to do this 2 year program. And then they're done.

It's idiotic, foolish, destructive, and it just waters down any value the university degree COULD hold and simply causes academic inflation (needing the MA where the BA would have been enough before). Inflation that our system can't handle because we don't have the funding to increase graduate level spots.

Congratulations Canada. All you've done is create an unnecessary, but now seemingly required, 4 year extension to high school... and it's privatized (despite the massive government subsidies that keep tuition in the 5K a year range).

Was that really the way we wanted things to go?

Just because Australia has this in place does not mean it will work in Canada. To generate revenue at the expense of our students does not make sense. Someone will have to suffer and that would be our kids.

Creating more opportunity for continuing education gets my support. Particularly the online university, which speaks to my rural location.
As for the worship of grades shown here. Isn't there an australian up for a nobel prize (medicine) who talks about being a C and B student. Innovation requires a flexible mind and one wonders how many babies have been thrown out with that carefully graded bath water.
Could universal access and opportunity allow for a wider range of excellence?

I would like to know why McGuinty cancelled support for the Grade 13 university prep year only to turn around and add an entire year of pre-primary education (Day Care) to the education system. Are our older students less important than pre-schoolers?

George has hit the nail on the head. Annoyed student: Try to understand that what you are talking about is abstract of the issue at hand. The problem is that Ontario has traded learning and earning for "self esteem" based grading and a fundamental misunderstanding of what minorities need to succeed as new Canadians. Looking good instead of thinking properly (the love of the concept rather then the usefullness of the learning).
Teachers have their hands tied and have their lives tied down to an abstract form of "learning" that they cannot possibly teach to all of the students they have and in the ways that are required.
There needs to be a good hard look taken at the reality of the situatin in Ontario. Vocation needs to come back with a vengence, College needs to remain respected and University revert back to its original purpose (so that it does not become the new college).

Cheers.